OK, let’s imagine, for a moment, a scenario. Let’s say, I’m sitting around the Winnebago some night, and I got the Tele plugged and suddenly, I channel some distant muse. I am inspired and, I come up with a riff that is rife with heaviosity. No ordinary riff, one that is hitherto unbeknownst to other rock and rollers. And let’s say that I then pick up the cell phone and immediately, because of the inherent urgency, place a call to Lou saying something like; “Lou, put down whatever you are doing and call Lloyd. Book a session immediately, I have happened on the mother of all rock riffs and we need to get this to the people, it’s of utmost importance”. And, let’s just say that Lou checks his messages in 3 or 4 days and calls me back in a couple of weeks and then, gets a hold of Lloyd and we go and lay this killer riff down. Then, we put it out over the web for the world to admire.
Now, let’s take this wild fantasy a bit further and imagine some young suburban, fantastic looking, wild eyed guitarist, who is in between classes and looking on the internet for a discussion about Hugo Chavez’ new socialism because he was really moved by that political science lecture that professor Grunwald gave this morning and, somehow by the magic of Google or divine intervention he finds himself at my site and, quite by accident, he hears this incredible guitar riff and starts humming along.
Now, flash forward 8 months, this same guy is sitting at his laptop and has all his plug-ins activated, has a Vox AC30 simulated along with a vintage Echo Plex and an octave divider and, he just broke up with his cheerleader girlfriend and he’s got the damnblues. Now he starts playing the first thing that comes to his angst-ridden, not quite post adolescent mind and it just so happens that it’s my riff that he heard so long ago. But, he’s really feeling the pain and anguish and he ends up writing a masterful piece of pop rock and roll, which he decides to put up on MySpace.
Now-does this guy owe me some money?
The correct answer is….only if he makes a bunch of money.
See, even if he took the whole thing note for note, word ford word and it’s obvious to anyone that ever hears it, I got to hire a guy that has Esq. after his name that lives in Nashville who in turn, will hire some guys with patches on the elbows, with my money, to make my point.
If it doesn’t make any money, have at it,
That’s the only sensible way to look at riff copping.
This brings up the case of Jason Shapiro who says that The Hives stole his riff.
Let’s go to the video.
First we have a clip of The Roofies (Jason’s old band) doing “Why You?”
As always, make sure your paperwork is in order then press pause on the music player located in the side bar before playing the YouTube.
Next we have The Hives doing “Tick Tick Boom”, a song that made a little dough.
Whatch’ya think? I think Jason has a case there. I think it’s riff coppage. See, it’s pretty hard to come up with a riff that nobody has done before these days. Especially when you are working with a limited set of notes (see blues scale) within a limited set of 12 notes (see Pythagoras) and, if you’ve dedicated your existence to living fast and leaving a good looking corpse, you should get your just rewards.
From L.A. Weekly.
Shapiro, best known as a guitarist for the Don Bolles glam-pop band Celebrity Skin has just filed a music plagiarism suit against the Swedish rockers. “I absolutely love The Hives and don’t feel great about suing a band I love,” says Shapiro, who discovered the similarity after friends heard the Hives tune in a movie trailer and brought it to his attention. “But I also feel credit is due where it is due if you borrow a riff.”
And lest you think that garage riffs are all the same, Shapiro tells us the two tunes were analyzed by a musicologist. “He said the part in question -the main riff and vocal melody- was very similar and its uniqueness led him to believe it wasn’t just a coincidence,” says Shapiro. “He also runs it through a background test seeing if any charts from previous songs are close and we were clear on that front.”
See what I mean, you got lawyers and “musicologists” (hunh!!??) involved and really, Jason sums it up; The Hives just “borrowed” a riff. It’s a simple case of riff coppage. Everybody does it. It only matters if the riff makes some dough.
Now, I talk a lot about how the music industry is over and the devaluation of creativity and such but, I think there is a better way to settle these matters of riff coppage. There is a way to handle this without all of the lawyer fees and musicologists. There are only 12 notes, we all know that. And, with all pop/rock music being based on a few simple rhythmic patterns, this stuff could easily be sussed out without threat of a jury.
What I propose is similar to what the insurance industry refers to as a “meat chart”. See, if you lose say, a finger or even a leg, in an industrial accident, there is a set figure, already in place, that is accepted as the value of that body part. X amount of $$$ for a finger, a toe, etc…See, the insurance companies know that if they have defined these values, they can avoid some costly billable hours. So let’s have the same thing for riffs. A meat chart for riffs. If it’s an 8 note riff, it’s worth X amount against the money made. Three noters would be worth considerable less.
It’s the same thing really. If you get a leg screwed off while you are working for someone that’s got no dough…well, it’s like your riff getting copped by someone that isn’t selling any records.
I remember one moment when I composed Santana’s Europa myself…
I was playing the lead to one of my schoolmates, saying look I made this up, and he takes my guitar and plays the same tune. I know, he says, Santana too…
That really happened to me when I was about 17 yo. I had no intention, but Europa remained in my head probably and I just came up with it.
However, I have a song that I haven’t recorded, with a riff that I came up with 2 years before Shakira. My riff is pure rock, her riff is pop or latino or whatever she sings, however, can I possibly say she borrowed it from me? I guess only if she came to the same shows I played the song on…I doubt. If I record the song now everybody will say I copied her song…
I once wrote Boulevard Of Broken Dreams and it was someone else who told me that was what I was playing :-(
What about entire progressions? What’s it worth in body parts — I’m guessing some internal organs and the Soul, too.
Here for your collective pleasures, is the most recent top few choices from my tween’s (ages 12 and 14) Windows Media PlayLists:
Insane Clown Posse / Juggernaut..
Kottonmouth Kings / Royal Highness
Soundtrack from the Crow / Various
Soundtrack from Transformers / Various
Deftones / Rx Queen
The Cure / Burn
Idiot Pilot / Retina and the Sky
Helmet / Milquetoast
Jesus and Mary Chain / Snakedriver
Linkin Park / What I’ve Done
Violent Femmes / Color Me Once
I felt lost at first; but then was found — comparing these “new” sounds to old sounds. In other words most melodies in recent Rock Classed tunes are very similar to the gods of the genesis of rock melodies past. The only difference I can distinguish is that the newer are digital, instead of vinyl… no?
Am I wrong to not start class action suits?
Epilogue: Drummers talking: “I once wrote this: ‘boom bidda bidda’” and now I hear it in Chinese Democracy..
Ovidiu-”Europa”…I wish I could hear that right now because, if my memory serves me well (not always the case), that song is a great example of riff coppage. It may be another Santana instrumental but, one of them (pretty sure it’s “Europa”) is a direct rip of “The Messiah Will Come Again” by Roy Buchanan.
Kenski-so….were you listening to that or was this a subliminal thing?
PD&F-The amount of content copped doesn’t really matter. It could be a whole progression, it could include everything down to the cover art and liner notes. The only factor is, whether or not the new song made money. If so, lawyer up and you will get some kind of pay day (1/3 off the top, plus operating expenses, expert witness etc.).
Rule of thumb…do you know any drummers that you would ask for a lawyer recommendation?
Well, OK, how about if we also throw in there Gary Moore’s Still got the blues?
Good point on the Joe the Drummer…
“OK, let’s imagine, for a moment, a scenario. Let’s say, I’m sitting around the Winnebago some night, and I got the Tele plugged and suddenly, I channel some distant muse.”
What if that muse is not so distant? <a href=”http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6oDdgrbmeE”=still got the blues; oh pretty woeman
t’anks Ovidiu… good time music this morning..
So let me get this straight; Mr. Shapiro holds a patent on the i-iv-III-VII ?
Crap! I’d better go tell my music students to quit using that progression…
music plagiarism-all of these comments serve to demonstrate how ridiculous the notion of music plagiarism is. And, when it’s really tested, in a court, in front of a jury, all bets are off. The George Harrison case involving “My Sweet Lord” scared the crap out of a lot of folks but, after that, there have been some pretty high profile cases where the jury decided in favor of the riff copper. It’s real easy to demonstrate that two songs are similar but difficult to prove that one person stole the thing from another.
Several years ago, I produced a demo for a country singer that we floated around Nashville. One song on there had a distinct intro, a chord progression and a fiddle melody line that was not one of the standard deals. Maybe, six months after we sent the demo around, there was a song that came out, by a major label artist and, they used this whole section note for note as the intro. About 45 seconds (which is a long intro by Nash. standards). It was note for note but, beyond that, it sounded like the same guys playing. When I first heard it, I was wonderihng if they sampled our demo. Now, I didn’t write the song. The two writers are both in the loop down there. They weren’t upset at all. Happens all the time kind of thing. The record ended up being a top twenty on the country chart which, wasn’t a big enough song to get worked up about. It only matters if it makes some money is what you hear a lot.
It’s funny, one thing I noticed was that a lot of these writers and publishers, they don’t get worked up about copyrights. They don’t copyright anything until it’s actually going to be released on a record. Sometimes, a record will start moving up the charts before it gets copyrighted. It’s not a big concern because, it’s pretty easy to prove when you wrote a song but, proving someone stole it is tough and usually not worthwhile.
I think Mr. Shapiro’s lawyers will work out some deal and you won’t hear anymore about it.
So let me get this straight; Mr. Shapiro holds a patent on the i-iv-III-VII ?
…
Oh shoot! I was just writing this comment and now I see it is already here… what to do?
clear case of plagiarism there PD…as soon as I get J. David Esq.(last name omitted in fear of legal action) to return my call, we’ll be in touch